Lucid Interview: Ruth Ben-Ghiat with Tom Coleman

I recently did an interview with Ruth Ben-Ghiat, author of “Strongmen,” the best selling book on authoritarian regimes. Here is a transcript of our conversation.

June 2, 2021
Lucid

I am pleased to bring you this interview with Tom Coleman, who is a former eight term Republican Member of Congress from Missouri. He earned a Master’s in Public Administration from NYU and a law degree from Washington University in St. Louis. He served as an assistant attorney general of Missouri and served two terms in the Missouri House prior to Congress. He served as Vice President, Government Relations at a Fortune International 100 company. He is an Advisor to Protect Democracy. He has appeared on MSNBC, CNN, PBS and FOX, and his opinion pieces have run in the Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, and other outlets. This interview, recorded on May 20, 2021, was edited for clarity and flow.

RBG (Ruth Ben-Ghiat): Americans have always seen the bipartisan system as offering more stability than countries with coalition governments, but when one of the two parties in a bipartisan system abandons democracy it’s a huge problem. What do you see as the future of our bipartisan system?

TC (Tom Coleman): When one party in a two-party system fails to recognize compromise as part of their responsibilities, then things become very polarized. I think there is perhaps a need for a new party. I myself am no longer a Republican. As Ronald Reagan said, he didn’t leave the Democratic party at the time, the Democratic party left him, and I feel the same way about the Republican party. It’s left me. I have become an independent. And I think a lot of people should feel ill at ease with the current extremist Republican party. I’m hoping that some of those people will perhaps come into a new party or join the Democrats, because the Republicans are really becoming the authoritarian party of America.

RBG: What does the GOP stand for today?

TC: I’m not sure they stand for anything except for making sure they don’t get Mr. Trump upset and he doesn’t get their base upset so that they won’t have a primary. If you really cared about the country, you would be voting for the commission to get to the bottom of the January 6 insurrection against our democracy. And yet Republicans are saying, “Oh, they look like tourists to me,” or “these were left wingers.” Total lies. In politics, you’ve got to believe in the same facts. You might differ on how to apply those facts or how to react to those facts with policies and ideas. But the Republicans under Trump believe in alternative facts. They live in an alternative world.

RBG: 57 GOP state and local officials took part in the January 6 coup attempt, as did dozens of retired and active-duty military and law enforcement personnel.

TC: Just the other day over 100 former and retired military people, including many generals, released a letter claiming that Joe Biden stole the election. It’s unprecedented and I wonder how this all ends when you see the military doing that and we had policemen attacking policemen on Capitol Hill.

RBG: Do you see people who could be leaders of a GOP committed to the rule of law?

TC: For me to answer that question, I would have to believe that the GOP is a healthy enough organization to elect people capable of good leadership. But when you have 35 people voting in favor of the January 6 commission and 175 against it you have very little chance, I think, of ever becoming a mainstream party again.

I think the future has to lie with the people back home. Constituents have to start to wake up, so to speak, because what they’ve been told by Fox News and other extreme news outlets is not true and we have to help them overcome that. I’m trying to figure out how to communicate with my former fellow Republicans.

RBG: Based on your experiences as an eight-term member of Congress, what can Americans do to influence the behavior of their elected officials?

TC: I’m encouraged by the turnout of last year’s election. I like the numbers for young people. I’m convinced that young people are going to have to save this country. That starts with 18 to 29-year-olds, perhaps up to mid-30s. They voted en masse for Biden and the Democrats.

And I think you’ve got to make life miserable for what we call the Republican party. I want to see them lose as many positions as possible, both at the state level and the national level, and maybe they’ll figure it out on their own. I won’t be part of it. I’m not going to waste my time trying to reform the Republican party. I think it’s too far gone. And when you look at the demographic makeup of the country and the changes with immigration, the Republican party doesn’t have much future, because they’re not inclusive. That’s why they are engaging with voter suppression activity in more than 40 states to turn the clock back.

RBG: So, what do you do to keep your perspective and keep serene?

TC: For five years, most of my energies, time, and thought went into trying to deal with the phenomenon of Donald Trump and the people who follow him. And now we’re in a different era, we have new challenges. I think everyone can find an organization to work with. Read as much as possible so you can be informed. I mean, we all have relatives who may have bought into the Trump phenomenon. It’s wrecked a lot of relationships and restoring those relationships in some cases might be good, too. I have three granddaughters and I hope for them that our democracy continues.

06.02.21
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